Knob Creek Late Night Gun Shoot

Knob Creek Late Night Gun Shoot


Thread: Had a blast at the knob. knob creek that is

No , I did not read that in a manual or stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night. it's just the facts Ma'am.

What's the difference between a pig and an Engineer ?
You can argue with the Pig.

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I am not crazy my mom had me tested

Theres a fine line between genius and crazy .. I'm that line
and depending on the day I might just step over that line .

No , I did not read that in a manual or stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night. it's just the facts Ma'am.

What's the difference between a pig and an Engineer ?
You can argue with the Pig.

Don't buy nuthing you can't take home

Thermal underwear style guru.
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Supplier to the rich(?) and infamous.

I just got home from a lllloooooooonnnnnggggg weekend there. 1PM to 5PM Thur., 7:30AM to 8:30PM Fri., 8AM to 10PM Sat. and 8AM to 6PM today. I'm gettin' way too old for that kind of work. It's been 10+ yrs. since I worked gun shows, now I remember why I gave it up.

Over all, a very enjoyable time though. I spoke briefly with Sgtonory Fri. He's one of the few Cast Boolit members I know by sight. If I do this again I'll get a CB hat or t-shirt so we can meet. If your kid got a free 50BMG case, that was from Tim and me at TNW Firearms.

Powder was in VERY SHORT supply. Some primers were available at prices that weren't completely outrageous and they disappeared quickly, but there were bullets and brass in military and LE cals. in abundance. I say "in abundance", but. there was lots of it available but it didn't last long due to some pretty decent prices. I snagged a 30 cal. ammo can full of 55 gr. .223 for $70/K from Jeff Bartlett at GIBrass, which is the best price I've seen in a few years. I was lucky to get that at 9AM Sat. he sold out a few minutes later. He had sold the first truck load by noon Fri. He still had some surplus powder late Sat., I guess that's a good sign. I don't think he even set up Sun.

Tim brought about 100K 50 cal. AP and tracers and 50K or so 50BMG brass and sold all of it at the best prices I've heard of recently. Some of it was in pretty sorry condition, but everybody seemed happy to see it available again.

Now, this isn't your run-of-the-mill gun show, but one thing I noticed was the AR15 scene. or rather the change in it. I didn't see as many guys carrying AR's as I normally see at local shows. I expect to see lots of AK's in this crowd, but this time it seemed to tip more toward the AK vs. the AR. Lots of people said they didn't see racks full of AR's like they expected. Now that everybody and his brother is an AR manufacturer, maybe the market is finally getting saturated. Recent prices seem to be getting back to '06 levels.

But. a good friend sold out all the 80% AR lower receivers he had (a number that would probably amaze you), all his in-the-white lowers and uppers and most of his raw forgings in .223 and .308. I'm not sure what's going on but, at the very least, I think there's a statement about the current political climate in there somewhere.

Anyhoooooo. a pretty good weekend overall.

Tim's original design. I been to three county fairs and a rat killin and I never seen anything I like more than this.


Knob Creek Machine-Gun Shoot

Guns available for rental vary, from staple American firearms such as the M-16 and M-14 to the AK-47 and Uzi and rare vintage weapons like the German MG-42.

Calling all military history buffs and military enthusiasts! Are you tired of just reading about military weapons? Are you yearning to see them in action? Have you dreamt of being able to fire a real machine gun yourself, of being able to control the raw, destructive firepower of a .50-caliber Browning or MG-42? If so, then the Knob Creek Machine-Gun Shoot and Military Gun Show is a dream come true!

The Knob Creek Machine-Gun Shoot, along with the coinciding Knob Creek Military Gun Show, is a semi-annual weekend event held near West Point, Kentucky, every April and October. The shoot and gun show usually span three days, beginning around 9 am on a Friday, and ending at 4 pm on a Sunday and includes a five-hour-long night shoot on Saturday.

The shoot is attended by thousands of people from around the world. The wide variety of powerful and exotic weaponry on display&mdashfrom miniguns to PPShs to .50-caliber sniper rifles&mdashmakes the Machine-Gun Shoot a veritable feast for the eyes, if a little rough on the ears. The amount of military weaponry on display at the Knob Creek Shoot is more than most civilians will see in a lifetime.

According to the official brochure, &ldquoThe Machine Gun (sic) Shoot itself, consists of four rounds of firing at a wide range of appliances, vehicles, pyramids of tires, and barrels of fuel with pyrotechnic charges attached. The pyrotechnic charges are then . . . set off . . . Creating large and small mushroom clouds and fire balls . . . &rdquo

The majority of the shooting is conducted on a large upper range. Shooters must pre-register their weapons and be issued range passes before being allowed to participate in the shoot. Firing is strictly timed and monitored by security personnel and is usually conducted on a &ldquohalf-hour on, half-hour off&rdquo basis, commencing at 9 am on the Friday the event begins.

Besides the upper range, there is a smaller, lower range where machine-gun rentals are available for anyone who wants to have their own chance to fire a real military weapon. Guns available for rental vary, from staple American firearms such as the M-16 and M-14 to foreign firearms such as the AK-47 and Uzi and rare vintage weapons like the German MG-42. Firing 30 rounds (one magazine) from an M-16 or AK-47 costs $40, while triggering 50 rounds with an MG-42 costs $65.

Flamethrowers can also be rented at the upper range, for the hefty price of $195. Gatling-gun rentals and scenic helicopter rides aboard a UH-1 Huey helicopter are also available.

The Knob Creek Military Gun Show is held in conjunction with the Machine-Gun Shoot. Located in a large, lighted pavilion adjacent to the upper range firing line and the Knob Creek main office, the show allows participants to buy, sell and trade Class III firearms (machine guns, short-barreled shotguns or rifles, and other weapons controlled under Title 2 of the 1968 Firearms Act). Far more than weapons are on sale at the gun show, however it is an eclectic event in every sense of the word, with vendors&rsquo wares ranging from gun parts to militaria to surplus to meteorites. Even a WWII 25mm French anti-tank gun was for sale at the most recent show.

The Fall 2008 Shoot was held October 10 &ndash 12. The dates for next year&rsquos Spring and Fall Shoots are April 3 &ndash 5 and October 9 &ndash 11.

For more information, visit the official Knob Creek Machine-Gun Shoot Web site. Click here to learn more about the Knob Creek Range, which is open year-round.

Photos left to right: 1. The author fires an AK-47 2. The firing line 3. Flamethrowner rental 4. Aftermath at the upper range 5. Knob Creek Military Gun Show 6. The author’s brother with an MG-42 7. Twin MG-42 anti-aircraft gun.


Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot July 26, 2007 3:29 PM Subscribe

While looking at a bunch of grownups shooting targets tells you something about the shooters, all that shooting doesn't seem to harm but their own pockets and the occasional caraless shooter. Giving that ak47 to the kid, the way he recoiled back, was so idiotic and dangerous , so I guess some will do it again and again.


Justinian writes "Driving ain't in the Constitution."
Neither is bearing ammo
posted by elpapacito at 4:21 PM on July 26, 2007

phrontist, the GE Minigun (the M134) fires at between 3000 and 6000 rpm. Bulk 7.62x51mm (AKA .308) sells for about $249/1000 or .25 per round.

Now as it happens, these nice round numbers make it pretty easy to figure out how much it costs per second:

(let's assume it's set to fire at full speed) 6000 rpm / 60 seconds = 100 rounds per second * 0.25 = $25 per second.

Which, as much fun as I'm sure it is, is too rich for my blood.
posted by quin at 4:26 PM on July 26, 2007

Kentucky has no state-level gun laws

Sure we do. Our state constitution has a somewhat broader and stricter version of the U.S. 2nd amendment. And there are some restrictions on possession for juveniles (handguns, I think, but rifles are okay) and felons, and concealed carry is only permissible with a permit.

Open carry is fine and dandy, though.
posted by dilettante at 4:48 PM on July 26, 2007

I had the same thoughts about ammo costs. Wow. talk about saving up your $$ to blow it on 10 seconds of destroying something. To each their own.

I get annoyed at the cost of .22 ammo, so I don't think I'm in the same leagues as these guys. a minigun? how often do you really get to shoot that? He must be the envy of his (heavily armed) peer group, which no doubt was the point :)
posted by EricGjerde at 4:56 PM on July 26, 2007

Very fun post. I'm surprised that there are not more gun-haters commenting.

Okay, well I hate guns. Sounds like these yokels are just having a good ol' time though.
posted by litfit at 5:06 PM on July 26, 2007

but, just as I wonder at every classic car and bike show I go to, is this just a white male endeavor?

I'll assume you've never seen a lowrider (almost always older models). And I've known numerous nonwhite gun enthusiasts. And even bikers are more diverse than you'd think.
posted by jonmc at 5:15 PM on July 26, 2007

now we've got pink ones? Carrying a handgun is the quickest way to triple your chances of getting shot in the city.

Maybe. But at the same time it might make some queerbasher think twice. But then again so would a Guardian Angels-style citizen patrol group in gay neighborhoods. I'm not talking vigilantism, just a subtle reminder that stuff like that shouldn't go tolerated.
posted by jonmc at 5:26 PM on July 26, 2007

Knob Creek is a blast. Some of the miniguns fire so fast that they sound like a solid tone. We were trying to figure out how many megahertz is equal to 30-50 Rounds per second.

and when two fire they develop harmonics like gigantic explosive basoons.
posted by Megafly at 5:45 PM on July 26, 2007

People should be required to get training and pass a test before they become gun owners. There are too many idiots with guns -- no one complains that you need to pass a test before driving.

Agreed, but considering there are 43,000+ vehicle deaths each year, compared to 900 accidental firearms deaths, perhaps the driving tests and vehicle regulations should be more stringent as well.
posted by BrotherCaine at 5:49 PM on July 26, 2007

Agreed, but considering there are 43,000+ vehicle deaths each year, compared to 900 accidental firearms deaths, perhaps the driving tests and vehicle regulations should be more stringent as well.

Before you could make a meaningful comparison, you'd have to have information comparing the prevalence of firearm use to the prevalence of automobile use.

But perhaps Americans really do fire their guns just as often as they drive their cars?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 6:39 PM on July 26, 2007

Agreed, but considering there are 43,000+ vehicle deaths each year, compared to 900 accidental firearms deaths, perhaps the driving tests and vehicle regulations should be more stringent as well.

Shouldn't you include the people who were killed intentionally?
posted by ssg at 7:01 PM on July 26, 2007

Maybe we can make a car that fires guns.

Eh, been there. I want a gun that shoots whole cars.
posted by loquacious at 7:31 PM on July 26, 2007

total firearm deaths (2004) 29,500.

just a data-point. from this wholly neat site
posted by edgeways at 8:05 PM on July 26, 2007

We were trying to figure out how many megahertz is equal to 30-50 Rounds per second.
30-50 Hertz, a bit lower than electrical hum. Or 0.00003 to 0.00005 MHz.

what? WHAT?
posted by longsleeves at 8:09 PM on July 26, 2007

One hertz is just one [whatever] per second.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:42 PM on July 26, 2007

edgeways -- What that statistic doesn't take into account are the large percentage of those that are not accidental, including most particularly suicides. Guns are a popular way to off yourself, for reasons that should be obvious.

Anyway, when I was up in Maine (which has no state-level regulation of Class III firearms beyond the Federal stuff) I always envied the guys with belt-feds. right up until I looked at how much they spend on ammo. And barrels. Oh, and from what I've heard, a legal one will run you, on average, about $10k, plus the BATF taxes. (Not bad for a gun that probably only cost Uncle Sam a few hundred bucks originally.)

What they blow in an afternoon I can shoot in my semi-auto for the better part of a year. Still, they're neat. And unlike a classic car, you don't have to build a spare garage to keep it in.

Unfortunately, I've heard that the manufacture and import of Class IIIs have been blocked recently, so there aren't going to be any more of them. Sad, particularly considering that there's only ever been one (out of 100,000+) used in a crime.
posted by Kadin2048 at 11:32 PM on July 26, 2007

When my daughter was in second grade in the states, they used to have regular emergency drills during which she and her classmates would have to hide under desks in an attempt to avoid the bullets of an armed intruder. That was about enough for me, honestly.

*mentally calculates distance between children and Knob Creek*

Phew. Maybe we'd better move a little further east. Zealous "but-I-have-a-right-to-an-assault-weapon" gun freaks give me the jeebies.

Q: "Gee, chuckdarwin, why did you take your family and leave the United States?"

A: "The bullets can't reach us over here."

Note to anyone stupid enough to believe the old chestnut about defending yourself from your own government (just in case, you know): your popgun isn't going to do much good against an AC130 gunship, a swarm of attack helicopters or an airstrike (which is how your beloved government took Baghdad). You are an idiot. In the event that your personal firearm will ever take a life, that life will most likely be one of your own family members'.

*wipes ass with 2nd amendment*
posted by chuckdarwin at 1:50 AM on July 27, 2007 [2 favorites]

odinsdream - Even if there was a Columbine / Virginia Tech style mass murder in America EVERY WEEK, no one would do anything to change the law. Some kind soul would start website. People would stop polishing their rifles for a moment and reflect on the tragic loss of life.

There comes a time when one is forced to give up on America: its citizens are never going to come to see reason on this issue.
posted by chuckdarwin at 7:19 AM on July 27, 2007

There comes a time when one is forced to give up on America: its citizens are never going to come to see reason on this issue.

Well, then give up on us. Thank god, because we need your approval.

I think the exact thing abou the UK, we should give up on the UK, as they are never going to come to see reason on this issue.


As far as the original post, I would love to go to Knob Creek for the shoot one year. I will have to book it for next April for my husband and I, days of automatic weaponry? So much fun. The best time I have ever had shooting is when we have rented automatic weapons at the range.

If antigun people could just see for a minute that target shooting, and matches like this, are fun, it would make this discussion easier.
posted by SuzySmith at 8:38 AM on July 27, 2007 [1 favorite]

OK.
posted by chuckdarwin at 9:09 AM on July 27, 2007

I've never been there: it's too far to walk and my "SO" won't drive me.

Do they have a Pat Tillman target?
posted by davy at 9:13 AM on July 27, 2007 [1 favorite]

Do they have a Pat Tillman target?

What the hell is the matter with you?
posted by Scoo at 9:59 AM on July 27, 2007 [2 favorites]

Amazing Steven C. Den Beste, because we all know how well that worked out for the Black Panther Party. now we've got pink ones?

Actually the pink ones are older than the black ones.
posted by Pollomacho at 10:11 AM on July 27, 2007

“Note to anyone stupid enough to believe the old chestnut about defending yourself from your own government. ” - chuckdarwin

And your experiance with any kind of firearms is? Any military experiance, at all? Picked up a history book? Know anything about basic policing?

Note to anyone stupid enough to posit the old strawman chestnut about your government hitting it’s own population with airstrikes or assaulting neighborhoods with puff the magic dragon to target one gun owner - it doesn’t happen. If you think it does, you are an idiot.
But let’s follow that line of thinking for a moment. The government YOUR government, sends assault helicopters into downtown (let’s say) Chicago (’cos I live here) and kills everyone within a 4 kilometer radius of say Western and Division. What are you going to do, write your congressman?
Even then - I would split. It takes time to summon serious firepower. If I’m sniping I’d hit and fade. But that’s all a f’ing fantasy.
Violence can destroy power but it is utterly incapable of creating it (to swipe a quote from Arendt).

But the main reason I have a handgun (as opposed to rifles, and other arms which are damned handy in any kind of guerilla operation) is to kill people like you.
You read that right. Certainly, not you specificially. This isn’t a threat, this is an explication of a very serious point - it’s exactly people like you who, when the shit hits the fan will “denounce” people like me. I’d kill them in ones and twos, typically using subterfuge (and, y’know, a pistol).

Perhaps you were engaging in hyperbole when you said you wipe your ass with the 2nd amendment. Moot point. There are people who would do exactly that and would, have, and do - place the ‘purity’ of their idealism above practicality or the rights of others or even justice. (We’ve seen much of this from this current administration).
That your ideals happen to be (or appear to be) to the ‘left’ is irrelevent to the form despotic rule takes. (Granting that it’s the ‘right’ currently leading the charge into totalitarianism - but I suspect those are currently just two sock puppets from the same despotic source. I’d be very surprised if - whomever is president next, doesn’t lead the charge to revoke gun ownership. A ‘left’ president would greatly aid such a move, as much as this current ‘right’ president was aided by his cadre in restricting other rights. And I’d be astonished if that future president wasn’t cheered on in exactly the same way this one is.)

Practically speaking governments can’t use massively destructive hardware to eradicate it’s more individual-minded population. They need, at the very least, the show of law and order. The appearance of it. Even Stalin had the show trials.
But really, despots don’t need heavy military hardware to cow the population. Even been in a country ruled by a despot? It’s exactly the Milgram experiment. Everyone is playing a role. The most important thing is to solidify your own role (as good supporting member of the party or whatever) by denouncing others.
So, in the nifty example of Joe Steel, he didn’t need air strikes, helicopters, machine guns, or even bullets, just small squads with logistic support for prisoners (in the Black Mariahs) because he had millions of regular Soviet citizens unmasking their fellow citizens.

“A society that is intense in its struggle for change has a flip side to its idealism: intolerance. People saw enemies everywhere, enemies who wanted to destroy the revolution and diminish the results of their hard work and accomplishments, enemies who wanted to restore capitalism for selfish reasons against the collective interests of the nation. If those at the top of the Communist Party and an old revolutionary like Trotsky could join the enemy, what about lesser people? In factories and offices, mass meetings were held in which people were urged to be vigilant against sabotage. It was up to common folks to make the distinction between incompetence and intentional wrecking [i.e., sabotage], and any mishap might be blamed on wrecking. Denunciations became common. Neighbors denounced neighbors. Denunciations were a good way of striking against people one did not like, including one's parents, a way of eliminating people blocking one's promotion, and . a means of proving one's patriotism. Many realized that some innocent people were being victimized, and the saying went around that "when you chop wood the chips fly." As with Lenin, it was believed that some who were innocent would have to be victimized if all of the guilty were to be apprehended.”

And since some folks are happy to wipe their asses with what I consider to be an important consitutional right, I can only surmise what they’d do to me in ones or twos or en masse. Hell, I can pop despots. They’re pretty exposed. All it takes is willingness to work at it. For them to get me - an anonymous nobody - would be a real problem. I can hide, change my name, etc., they can’t, they have to rule.
But much like athiests’ gripe with Jesus, on a personal level it’s not the government I expect to kill me, it’s their fan club.
posted by Smedleyman at 12:03 PM on July 27, 2007 [4 favorites]

Note to anyone stupid enough to believe the old chestnut about defending yourself from your own government (just in case, you know): your popgun isn't going to do much good against an AC130 gunship, a swarm of attack helicopters or an airstrike (which is how your beloved government took Baghdad).

Note to anyone stupid enough to believe the above: it helps to remember that while we took Baghdad with air strikes, it is necessary to hold it with infantry. And the history of the 20th century -- hell, the last day or two of sniper attacks in Baghdad -- shows quite clearly that small-arms guerrilla tactics work against infantry. The people of Iraq are armed mainly with improvised explosives and small-arms, and they are holding out against an occupation brought on by the world's most powerful army.

Clearly, "my popgun" might be better insurance against tyranny than you seem to think. and at any rate, it's certainly better than nothing. It does not surprise me that some people are unwilling to arm themselves -- it's obviously not for everyone -- but I am continually amazed at arguments like yours, which ignore the realities of physical force entirely. If war were as simple as "airstrikes > small arms", no one would ever have fought after 1945 or so, and we certainly wouldn't be living in a world in which one of the most well-trained and well-supplied armies ever mustered has lost more than one war against small-arms freedom fighters.
posted by vorfeed at 2:25 PM on July 27, 2007

Any military experiance, at all?


Bill: "I believe that abortion is morally wrong."
Dave: "Of course you would say that, you're a priest."
Bill: "What about the arguments I gave to support my position?"
Dave: "Those don't count. Like I said, you're a priest, so you have to say that abortion is wrong. Further, you are just a lackey to the Pope, so I can't believe what you say."
posted by chuckdarwin at 3:09 PM on July 27, 2007

vorfeed makes a much stronger case, but fails to convince me.

. it's certainly better than nothing.

Not to me. The most likely scenario in which I would be called to use a gun would be to defend against a burglar. I'd rather they take the TV, honestly. I don't want to have someone's life on me conscience.

It comes down to this: people in the US want to hang on to their pistols and semi-autos because they want to be able to fight off the government [a highly unlikely scenario]. Meanwhile, any nutjob can get one and wipe out dozens of students on any campus in the country.

Am I the only person who sees this as a shitty trade-off? Surely a rifle would be good enough to defend yourself with. and a large rifle sure is hard to sneak into a school.

But, no. People won't budge. Some of you won't be happy until you can own a Howitzer.
posted by chuckdarwin at 3:21 PM on July 27, 2007

Any military experience, at all?

No, it's not ad hominem anyone with military experience would know that there's a huge difference between battles and occupation, as vorfeed described.

people in the US want to hang on to their pistols and semi-autos because they want to be able to fight off the government [a highly unlikely scenario].

It is a highly unlikely scenario in part because people have hung onto their guns. There is no way that a government could exist here without the support of the people.
posted by me & my monkey at 3:45 PM on July 27, 2007

One doesn't need to have been a soldier to tell the difference between a battle and an occupation.

Attacking me and my personal background instead of attacking my argument is an ad hominem argument. Read up on it.
posted by chuckdarwin at 3:55 PM on July 27, 2007

chuckdarwin - my point in asking your experiance is questioning the premise upon which your statement was based.
Morally you can hold any position you wish. Where that moral basis conflicts with reality is open to argument on a practical, not theoretical, basis.
You can then argue that abortion is morally wrong.
You cannot however genuinely support that moral argument by asserting that abortion doctor bombard the fetus and patient and the entire neighborhood with harmful radiation.
It is simply not factual from practical experiance (my own, but more importantly, easily researched others) and from documented history that small groups using small arms are ineffective against larger more heavily armed military forces.
You wish to argue that the number of deaths from gun ownership are too high to justify a given interpretation of the second amendment - fine. I can address that conceptually and we can engage in a reasonable argument based on the degrees to which we respectively value life and liberty.
You want to say I can’t raise all kinds of hell in someone’s otherwise heavily secured backyard, it just isn’t true.
Arguments about the efficacy of resistance in meeting political objectives are a whole other thing.
But the Arendt quote (Violence can destroy power but it is utterly incapable of creating it) is solidly based on direct observation as well as a good deal of erudition on political science, human behavior, authority, totalitarianism and violence in general. Your statement runs contrary to that as well as my own study.
My question stands - upon what practical reality is the claim you made based?
Is there some historical basis for your belief? I don’t know of any - hence the question.

And it’s not an ad hominem. An ad hominem would be asserting your arguments have no merit because you’re the kind of dolt that refuses to address any points rasied by a counter-argument and instead engages in this academic rules of rhetoric fallacy bullshit.

Might work were I not in earnest. But no, I’ve taken your argument very seriously and I’ve taken pains to note that I’m not at odds with you personally.
And if it was not plain implicitly, I’ll make it explicit: I cede the other arguments (not the more irrational outbursts that we’re all subject to at times) - most particularly the notion that being a gun owner - automatically - makes one a more responsible citizen - it doesn’t.
I further have no argument on the numbers of dead or anything of that nature. I’m willing to debate (as above) the morality of the ownership of firearms, but that’s not at all what I addressed here.

What I did ask - more clearly put is: how then is it - or what is it that makes it - impossible for an armed citizen to resist the military force of his or her country?

I’ve outlined why I reject the idea that a government would use overwhelming force on it’s own subjects on the basis of the symbolism of power (indeed, I remember the Chinese taking pains to avoid running over ONE unarmed citizen confronting a tank column) and other reasons - easily googled (as my own experiance is not open to objective scrutiny).

Anything to substantiate your position - on that statement - beyond the fallacy dictionary?

To futher clarify: I would not consider a consession as a “win” for a pro-gun position. My passion on this subject is derived from the desire to properly classify the usage of firearms - not to establish the morality of them. Different subject.
Much as I’d contest the above characterization - irresponsible bombardment by radiation - of abortion.

(Although I will say I’ve never understood how some people can be pro-choice and anti-firearm. It seems inconsistent to assert the lives of the unborn are secondary to the life and liberty of the mother and the government has no business attempting to protect those lives, and yet refuse to weigh liberty as more important that life when it comes to ownership of firearms. And as has been pointed out, there are entities other than government that may wish to deprive you of your rights.
The out I suppose would be considering a fetus not to be ‘life.’ I don’t buy that myself (I am pro-choice however, for exactly the reasons I stated) - but I recognize it as a contested point. There are certain matters of technique and other practical concerns which are often distorted by the forces on one ideological side or the other. This matter - small arms being ineffective against military forces - I see in the same vein and I wish to remove the distortion, not, in this thread anyway, contest the ideology either way.)
posted by Smedleyman at 4:04 PM on July 27, 2007

One doesn't need to have been a soldier to tell the difference between a battle and an occupation.

Yet, you seemed to be unable to do so.

Attacking me and my personal background instead of attacking my argument is an ad hominem argument. Read up on it.

Instead of reading up on it, I'll just say I had the same reaction as Smedleyman did - no one with military experience would have written what you wrote. But thanks for the helpful advice, I guess. In turn, you may want to read up on the history of disarming populations under despotic governments. There are plentiful examples available.
posted by me & my monkey at 4:07 PM on July 27, 2007

It comes down to this: people in the US want to hang on to their pistols and semi-autos because they want to be able to fight off the government [a highly unlikely scenario].

Is it so completely impossible for people to understand that for a lot of us, it's not about fighting off the government or defending our homes from pirates or whatever, and it's that we enjoy shooting? That is what the links here are about. A bunch of people who like to go out into a big empty space and shoot guns.

You can see in this very thread people have discussed how enjoyable they find this experience.

Meanwhile, any nutjob can get one and wipe out dozens of students on any campus in the country.

Yes. And any nutjob could also do the same thing with a knife, or a propane bomb, or a car. Nutjobs are nutjobs, the gun in their hand don't change that.

Am I the only person who sees this as a shitty trade-off?

No, there are lots of people just like you. Which is why whenever anyone posts anything about guns, invariably it turns into a discussion just like this one.

Surely a rifle would be good enough to defend yourself with. and a large rifle sure is hard to sneak into a school.

Again, not everyone who shoots is doing so to defend themselves. And in some cases, no a rifle is not an ideal choice to defend yourself. In a confined space for example.

But, no. People won't budge. Some of you won't be happy until you can own a Howitzer.

Is that an option?
posted by quin at 4:14 PM on July 27, 2007

It comes down to this: people in the US want to hang on to their pistols and semi-autos because they want to be able to fight off the government [a highly unlikely scenario]. Meanwhile, any nutjob can get one and wipe out dozens of students on any campus in the country.

Am I the only person who sees this as a shitty trade-off? Surely a rifle would be good enough to defend yourself with. and a large rifle sure is hard to sneak into a school.

I'm not sure why you're including semi-autos in this. Semi-auto or full-auto "assault weapons" of the sort in the video are very rarely used in crimes, and on top of that, many long-rifles of the typical hunting persuasion (i.e. the type you'd apparently let people keep) are semi-automatic.

Also, a rifle is certainly not an appropriate weapon for self-defense. Rifles fire high-velocity, high-penetration rounds by design, which means they're likely to go right through the attacker, the wall behind him, the wall of the other house behind that, and then through your neighbor's kid. Rifles are offensive weapons meant for hitting something between 50 and 300+ yards away from you, not 5 yards or less, as in the case of a physical or handgun attack. This is the very reason why bayonets and/or handguns are carried by soldiers: because rifles don't make good defensive weapons. If you want a home-defense weapon, you want a handgun or a shotgun. and a handgun is much easier to secure and conceal, things you need to think about when choosing such a weapon.

So yeah, it's a trade-off, but not as simple a trade-off as you seem to think, particularly since Constitutional rights are in the mix. That goes double when you realize that our 200-million-plus guns kill around 15,000 non-suicides a year -- this doesn't exactly lend credence to the idea that guns are such tremendously hazardous objects that we ought not be allowed to have them. At best, a perfectly effective (and perfectly draconian) gun ban could save a few thousand lives. by eliminating a Constitutional right and disenfranchising millions. That's a shitty tradeoff, if you ask me.
posted by vorfeed at 4:19 PM on July 27, 2007

So vorfeed, you guys are willing to trade 15,000 lives a year for your right to own a pistol?

I think that says more than any argument I can make.

Besides, Smedleyman, if your arguments were really persuasive, wouldn't every country in Europe have already legalised gun ownership? Maybe they all think that 15,000 extra murders per year are too high a price to pay for 'freedom'.
posted by chuckdarwin at 4:57 AM on July 29, 2007

So vorfeed, you guys are willing to trade 15,000 lives a year for your right to own a pistol?

I think that says more than any argument I can make.

For one thing, it's obviously not a direct trade. A perfectly effective gun ban might prevent 15,000 "gun deaths", but I rather doubt they'd prevent 15,000 deaths total, because I'm pretty sure people aren't going to immediately stop murdering each other if they don't have any access to guns. And at any rate, a perfectly effective ban on anything is a dream to begin with -- in reality, both criminals and citizens who want self-defense would simply turn to illegal sources for guns. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think that would be a positive development.

Also, it's not just about "my right to own a pistol", it's about "my right not to have yet another perfectly harmless action turned into an excuse for the government to throw me in jail". Judging by how well the War on Drugs has worked (for the prison industry, that is), I'd say a War on Guns would probably end up ruining an order of magnitude more than 15,000 lives. We already have laws against murder. If you want to save lives, enforce those, and leave law-abiding people who don't hurt anybody alone.

Besides, I'd be willing to trade my life for my right to own a pistol, if need be. This may blow your mind, but some people really do have convictions that matter more than the simple existence of life. For me, one of those is self-defense.

Besides, Smedleyman, if your arguments were really persuasive, wouldn't every country in Europe have already legalised gun ownership? Maybe they all think that 15,000 extra murders per year are too high a price to pay for 'freedom'.

Here's another mind-blowing concept for you: different countries have different cultures! If (for example) the UK likes surveillance cameras more than guns, more power to them, and better them than us. I'm not interested in dictating the proper lifestyle for people in places I don't choose to live in, unlike some I could mention in this thread.

Also, considering that at least one country in Europe has not just legal, but compulsory gun ownership, maybe "freedom" is an important concept overseas as well. Then again, you'd have to actually know something about European gun ownership rates (hint: Guns are legal with restrictions in many EU countries. Some countries even have rates of per-capita firearm ownership close to ours, yet markedly lower homicide rates. So much for your easy trade-off.) And for more on the trade-off I mentioned earlier, read this, a paper written by an Austrian criminologist about gun control in the EU. The bottom line: gun control doesn't have an obvious effect on crime rates, but it does have an obvious effect on rates of illegal gun running and on civil rights. For more on the non-connection between legal gun ownership and crime, try Gark Kleck's "Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America".
posted by vorfeed at 11:55 AM on July 29, 2007

Thanks for a well-made argument: if it really does come down to culture over facts, let me be the first to say that I'm glad that I live in a country that eschews guns. Are my kids less likely to be shot living here or living in the states?

Here.
posted by chuckdarwin at 5:17 PM on July 29, 2007

Oh, come on. "Culture over facts"? I haven't seen a single supported fact from you this entire time. Nor have you responded to any argument made in this thread, other than to insult people and make snarky and/or factually incorrect one-liners.

At any rate, it's clear that you're only interested in making assertions, not arguments. Funny how someone who claims that "Americans will never come to see reason on this issue" hasn't actually employed any reason to back up his beliefs. Yes, you value a sense of personal safety over gun rights -- good for you, perhaps now you'll bother to make some argument as to why such values should be adopted by Americans, or, failing that, why we should be considered "idiots" for not sharing them. I've given plenty of reasoning to support my position, but I'm not seeing any from you, and I'm getting tired of bothering when it's obvious that you're not really interested in challenging your previously-held notions on this issue. Easier to think of people on the other side of the issue as fools, I suppose.

p.s. Correlation (e.g. "the UK has relatively few guns and a relatively low violent crime rate") is not causation (e.g. "if the US also had relatively few guns, it would therefore have a relatively low violent crime rate"). There are many differences between your country and mine that have been shown to have a strong causative relationship with violent crime (namely poverty and inequality), and I've shown that there's a distinct lack of such a connection with regards to gun possession. So, while I understand why the relative lack of violent crime in the UK affects your own opinion about which country you'd like to live in, I don't see why it should have anything to do with American gun policy, and, by extension, this argument.
posted by vorfeed at 9:33 PM on July 29, 2007

“Besides, Smedleyman, if your arguments were really persuasive,”

Apparently my previous comment held absolutely no sway, or you ignored it, or are incapable of understanding the difference.
The point being - what arguments? My contention with you is over a point of fact.

“Maybe they all think that 15,000 extra murders per year are too high a price to pay for 'freedom'.”

Perhaps all the babies aborted each year are too high a price to pay for the “freedom” to choose.

- you see, that’s one of the (many) reasons my argument is over the reality of the situation and meaning of the words.
Forgive me for belaboring certain points, I don’t mean to insult your intellect, but you don’t seem to be understanding it. That there that I just did? That’s an example of how you are attempting to characterize the argument devoid of acknowleging that certain facts are contended. It’s similar to arguing a practical point with a religious fanatic or a pro-lifer. Many of them refuse to acknowlege the practical points against their “facts.” This doesn’t dispute the ideology, merely the realities. Yet they refuse to relinquish them when faced with solid evidence.)

Some countries don’t bring moralistic arguments into a woman’s right to choose what to do with her body - I favor that because although morally I’m entirely pro-life, I can’t in good conscience allow the government to have that power. For me it’s a legal right, period. Similar to gay marriage - which I oppose, but I respect the legal right. There’s a difference between the practical applications of power in terms of how it violates rights or creates a privileged class and any given moral standard.

Some countries have legalized drug usage, I favor that (in some cases) as well. I see many willing to sacrifice their health for the sake of certain freedoms.
But again - this is academic as you refuse to concede to any facts brought to bear that interfere with your ideology.

To again belabor the point - while I refuse to allow the government to interfere with the birth cycle - I do so on principle. Not because of any given technique of abortion - whether one is painful or harmful or not. That would be a sub-set of the overall question. And obviously I would oppose any harmful technique.
In much the same way “kids getting shot” is a subset of the overall question of gun ownership that is obviously universally opposed. The two positions - while related - are different in kind.
While I happen to agree with vorfeed that you have not brought any reasonable argument to support your position, I suspect that it is because you do not understand this difference. I’m not saying you’re stupid or anything, it is often the case that deeply held beliefs can occlude, in the passion to pursue them, a clearer perspective of not only what others are saying, but what one is saying oneself.
And vorfeed’s patience has been exemplary. My own is at an end.
posted by Smedleyman at 8:48 AM on July 30, 2007

Easier to think of people on the other side of the issue as fools, I suppose.

I don't think that either of you are fools I think you're people who are convinced that guns make you safer. This is merely perception.

So, while I understand why the relative lack of violent crime in the UK affects your own opinion about which country you'd like to live in, I don't see why it should have anything to do with American gun policy, and, by extension, this argument.

You're right it's too late. Even in the event of a ban, there are too many guns in America to ever be recovered. Keep your pistol. just don't point the fucking thing at me and mine.
posted by chuckdarwin at 4:10 PM on July 30, 2007

Thanks for trying to change my mind. Right before I left the states, three kids were executed on prom night. This was very near my house.

I can't say that it made me feel very good about sending my kids to said high school.

Call me stubborn.
posted by chuckdarwin at 4:13 PM on July 30, 2007

I don't think that either of you are fools I think you're people who are convinced that guns make you safer. This is merely perception.

Here's something you said in an earlier post. In case you have problems finding it, it's just a few posts before you started crying about ad-hominem:
"Note to anyone stupid enough to believe the old chestnut about defending yourself from your own government [. ] You are an idiot."

It's pretty hard for me to take your "I don't think that either of you are fools" statement seriously, considering that you came right out and said the opposite just a couple of days ago. Sorry, I'm not buying it.

Also, please find even ONE place in this thread where I said something to the effect that I believe guns "make you safer". I haven't used the word "safe" at all, other than to describe your position, because I personally believe that feelings of "safety" are misleading and ultimately meaningless. What guns do is give you the ability to fight and kill if necessary, and that's clearly not safe in the least. I have guns precisely because I'm not willing to bet my life and well-being on passive ideals of "safety". Instead, I cherish active values of self-sufficiency and self-defense: that is to say, the personal, physical ability to fight unto death, if need be. This is probably why we've been talking over each other -- we have two very different world-views. I'm not interested in your "safety", and you're not interested in my "freedom". It's the sort of cultural difference one can live with. until you start smearing shit on the latter, yes?

As for my conviction being "merely perception", tell me: since there is no evidence that rates of gun possession have a direct relationship with rates of violent crime, how is your own conviction that a lack of neighbors with guns makes you safer not also merely perception? What do you think convictions even are, if not matters of mere perception? Yes, optimally, they should be backed up by facts. but that's why I don't understand your continual failure to offer any to defend your point of view.

At any rate, I was right -- you're NOT interested in reason or in responding to anyone's points, as demonstrated by yet another specious bunch of one-liners. I'm more than happy to exercise politeness and reason in debate (or "patience", as Smedleyman kindly put it), but when you fail to respond in kind, even after having been repeatedly called out for it, I'm just wasting my time.
posted by vorfeed at 5:42 PM on July 30, 2007

I cherish active values of self-sufficiency and self-defense: that is to say, the personal, physical ability to fight unto death, if need be.

That says it all, vorfeed: you're willing to take another life if need be, and I'm not.

If someone wants to rob me (which could happen almost anywhere), I'll certainly try and disarm the person or diffuse the situation, but if I have no choice, I'd rather give them the money than kill them. I'm no killer, and I don't wish to be.

You're correct: this is a waste of time.
posted by chuckdarwin at 3:48 AM on July 31, 2007

Chuckdarwin, if you fear murder, you are right to live in the UK, because guns aside, it is a less murderous culture. Personally, I fear death in general for myself and my loved ones. I don't want to be run over, misdiagnosed, exposed to bad nutrition, or die in a household accident. As far as I'm concerned, gun homicide is a drop in the bucket when compared to the statistics of death. The best thing I can do for me and mine is shorten our time on the roadways.

You are right that it is too late for America to embrace gun control. There are over 200 million guns in this country, and at least 39% of households have one. Judging by the countries that have gun bans and higher gun homicide rates like Mexico, I doubt it would have gotten us anything positive to ban them.
posted by BrotherCaine at 11:24 PM on July 31, 2007

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Kentucky: Roar of the Tommy Guns, smell of the crowd

WEST POINT, Ky | Sat Oct 20, 2012

The slow-moving snarl last weekend brought upwards of 17,000 people to Knob Creek’s three-day Machine Gun Shoot, an event that twice a year draws machine gun collectors and enthusiasts from around the country to test out weapons like Tommy Guns, water-cooled Brownings and M16s.

“Guns aren’t bad,” said Knob Creek manager Kenny Sumner. “They’re only bad when the wrong people have them.”

The event, which started in the 1970s and bills itself as the country’s largest, shows the attraction for some people of firing off renowned big guns, even as the presidential candidates spar over whether modern military-style weapons should be allowed in civilian hands.

In the recent debate, President Barack Obama said he would back an assault weapons ban, while Republican candidate Mitt Romney said he’s not in favor of such a law, though he signed one while governor of Massachusetts.

Machine gun shoots like Knob Creek – and this weekend’s competing Big Sandy shoot in Arizona – offer enthusiasts a rare opportunity to get their hands on fully automatic weapons, which can be difficult to buy under federal laws, and to fire a variety of them.

Most of the guns used and sold at machine gun shoots are fairly old. Federal law prohibits private individuals from possessing or acquiring machine guns other than those lawfully registered before 1986.

Inside the gates of the Knob Creek Shoot, gun dealers mingled with Tea Party activists and sport shooters. Knives, ammunition, all types of guns and accessories, and bumper stickers were on sale from about 225 vendors.

There were military insignias, tri-cornered hats and “Don’t Tread on Me” flags. At least one booth sold flags and banners with swastikas, and uniformed paramilitary groups also displayed signs bearing the Nazi symbol.

Most of the vendors were arrayed around the range’s main firing line, the event’s center stage with weapons pre-positioned on tripods or other mounts.

Concession stands and the National Rifle Association signup booth shared prime real estate next to a line of packed bleachers. Nearly everyone used ear protection to counter the extreme roar from the simultaneous firing of well over a dozen machine guns only a few feet away.

Dust, smoke and the smell of gunpowder filled the air.

Targets included old appliances, cars and boats spread out down a narrow, wooded valley, some perched on the hillsides, others right handy to the shooters. Some were set ablaze by tracer bullets. The night show, which featured barrels of fuel with pyrotechnic charges attached, resulted in fiery mushroom clouds and fireballs.

Admission for adults was $10. The crowd was almost entirely white, with twice as many men as women. Kids under age 12, mostly boys, some riding their fathers’ shoulders, got in for half price. Some even got to have their own quality time with an assault weapon.

Nine-year-old Cody Miller from Cincinnati was among them. At a secondary firing range a few hundred yards from the main one, a gun range assistant laid an empty ammo box on the ground for the youngster to stand on to fire a Soviet-made PKS heavy machine gun.

“Are you ready for this?” the spotter asked. The boy nodded and opened fire as his proud father looked on and photographed the scene. Cody said this was his second year firing machine guns. No big deal, he shrugged.

“We shoot a lot,” explained his father, Jeff Miller.

Joshua Horwitz, director of the Washington-based Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, said his group has no position on organized shooting events like Knob Creek.

“Our feeling is that if you’re going to use a firearm, that’s the place to do it – on a range,” said Horwitz, whose organization is typically at odds with the National Rifle Association on relaxing gun laws.

Horwitz said he does see something disturbing in the symbolism and right-wing themes that sometimes emerge at shoots.

“Often at these events … we see vestiges of the insurrectionist idea – the idea that firearms are to be stockpiled and used against the government,” he said.

Many people who attend such events profess patriotism, he said, but “their contempt for the government borders on treason.

“I worry far more about the political ideology of these events than I do the firearms.”

(Reporting by Steve Robrahn Editing by Mary Wisniewski and Prudence Crowther)


The blast wave thumping into my body felt familiar. My mind flashed to a memory — face full of grit, ears ringing, eyes fixed on a convulsing, dying 13-year-old boy whose legs had been blown off by a bomb hidden on a dirt path in Southern Afghanistan.

I began to take a knee, but paused. I was not in a war zone. I am no longer a soldier. I was in America, at a gun range in Kentucky. This was a show, an experience manufactured for my entertainment. The muted grunts from a child’s blood-filled mouth were replaced by cheers and rebel yells.

The Knob Creek Gun Range is 30 minutes outside of Louisville near the town of West Point, on a former military testing range. Twice a year, the range hosts “the Machine Gun Shoot,” arguably the most famous — and impressive — display of civilian-owned firepower in America.

For three days in late October, the firing line was packed. Shooters unloaded everything from the type of gas-operated machine guns my grandfather used in World War II to the M-249 Squad Automatic Weapon I was first given as an 18-year-old Infantryman. They shot weapons I’ve fired, and weapons that have been fired at me. They aimed downrange at cars, washing machines, kitchen appliances, barrels filled with explosives, and even a boat. Thousands of spectators watched from a nearby observation stand, their smartphones extended skyward to capture the action.

Attending the shoot as a veteran was a complex experience. My first instinct was to try to convince myself that I was having fun. The shoot felt like an essentially American activity, after all — regular citizens legally and safely fire fully automatic weapons and blow inanimate objects to smithereens. Fully automatic weapons are almost exclusively owned by collectors — they cost tens of thousands of dollars — and are almost never used in crimes.

Some of the attendees were curious onlookers, or enthusiasts looking to vent some pent up frustration or stress by paying hundreds of dollars to blow up a propane tank or annihilate an old car. Between firing sets, shooters and spectators were allowed to walk out on the range to observe the targets torn apart and aflame. Children posed for photographs next to burning cars and skipped between pockmarked household appliances, digging through the dirt to find bullets that were theirs to keep.

But the novelty quickly wore off. It felt too much like a raw outpouring of the new masculine standard of American gun culture: possessing weapons systems and gear more complicated and high-tech than what I carried into combat. And there was hatred on display.

People sported shirts emblazoned with “Armed Infidel” or “Fuck Hillary.” In the range’s vendor area, sellers offered tables of guns, armor, and survivalist equipment. One sold Nazi uniforms, billed for “re-enactment purposes.” Another offered a t-shirt that read, “Lee Harvey, we need you now!” in bold block letters across the front. Several sheriff’s deputies stopped momentarily to observe the message, but continued on their way.

While walking the grounds I noticed a familiar sight, the Army’s Combat Action Badge on the hat of a man in his mid-20s, my age. He’d served two tours in Iraq, he told me. He was also an avid weapons collector. I asked about some of the anti-government rhetoric I’d heard, and seen — and what he thought about the recent arrest of several anti-government extremists in rural Kansas who had been caught plotting a terror attack on Somali immigrants.

“What do you think the guys hauling off all this gear and ammo at the show are doing?” he joked, implying that some people in attendance might be capable of similar plots.

As the sun set, I settled into the stands to watch the long weekend’s main event: the night fire: literally, shooting high-powered weapons after dark. Explosions lit up the sky. I snapped photos and enjoyed the view, but I couldn’t help but think of that shirt.

The attempted terrorists in Kansas were outed by a colleague, who alerted police to the same types of words and political energy I’d seen worn on t-shirts and patches all weekend. At Knob Creek, most of the crowd, I assumed, was harmless: people who like big guns and have the money to spend on them. But I’m worried that the violent words might escalate to action — that what’s billed as entertainment and play is practice for something real.

Alex Flynn is a photographer working out of Missouri and New York. He spent six years in the Army, serving as an infantryman and then as a combat correspondent.


Machine gun shoot vacation (VIDEO)

While some people call a beach and hammock their vacation place, Richard Creager of Frederick, Maryland likes to relax and unwind at the bi-annual Knob Creek machine gun shoot in West Point, Kentucky. ‘Its one of the few things I do for vacation.’ He says.

He’s obviously not alone. Dozens of other machine gun enthusiasts wait up to ten years to get a spot on the coveted firing line where they get to fire off a few thousand rounds at exploding targets. Tens of thousands of spectators attend the event to watch the ruckus.

Richard brings a small arsenal with him. Among his favorites firearms are an assortment of AKs, some of which he made himself, a 1910 Maxim machine gun and a model 1917 Lewis gun. Referring to his guns, he says, ‘They’re reliable and that’s kind of my hobby. I enjoy shooting them and they have a little history with them which is interesting.’

He insists that anyone that enjoys guns must attend the night shoot at the Knob Creek. It takes place on the Saturday night of the event and is second to none in terms of sheer firepower and explosions.

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Knob Creek Late Night Gun Shoot - HISTORY

Upcoming on the History Channel:

Knob Creek Gun Range: #90.
Airs on Tuesday, January 3 at 8:00pm ET

Host R. Lee Ermey heads to Knob Creek Gun Range in West Point, Kentucky, outside of Fort Knox, for the Knob Creek Shoot, a weekend when machine-gun owners and collectors converge for unbridled mayhem. At this former military-munitions test range, shooters nationwide come to buy, sell, and trade.

First, the Gunny shows us around, talks about the history, hits sales tables, and fires off a few thousand rounds--from state-of-the-art to early vintage.

Next, Lee takes a turn on the "Jungle Walk", a machine-gun shooting course with hidden targets and dense brush to recreate what it was like for the grunts in Viet Nam and he gets a lift on a mule to the Knob Creek helipad where he goes aloft in a Cayuse OH-6A Helicopter for the range's aerial shooting course.

Then, it's the night shoot, when you really get to see raw power as machine guns shoot tracers and fire at targets filled with diesel fuel and dynamite, incinerating cars, refrigerators, and oil drums.

Now, since not all of you have access to the History Channel, you can download the entire program and watch it at your leisure. Be warned, however, that it's a 47 meg. file! If you don't have broadband, don't even try!

1 Comments:

A friend of mine was down there at the time and go to meet him.
He said he was a very nice, friendly guy, and interestingly, a total chick-magnet.

2008 Steel Challenge World Championships, Piru, California.


ABC News Used Footage From a Kentucky Gun Show and Said It Was Syrian Warfare

Trust in the news media is at historic lows. Days like today won't make it any better.

During Sunday evening and Monday morning broadcasts, ABC News showed footage from a gun show at the Knob Creek Gun Range in West Point, Kentucky. Except they told viewers it was a showdown between Syria and Turkey.

"We've taken down video that aired on World News Tonight Sunday and Good Morning America this morning that appeared to be from the Syrian border immediately after questions were raised about its accuracy," a network representative told the Washington Examiner, which first reported this story. "ABC News regrets the error."

Tensions have indeed escalated between Turkish forces and the Syrian Kurds after President Donald Trump abruptly pulled back U.S. troops from northern Syria, essentially greenlighting an invasion from Turkey. "Turkey will soon be moving forward with its long-planned operation into Northern Syria," said a statement from the White House last week. There have already been reports of violence, including footage of Turkish militants executing a group of civilians and a Kurdish politician on the side of a highway.

Many say Trump's sudden decision was devoid of foresight, which made a bad situation much worse. Rep. Justin Amash (I–Mich.), a non-interventionist by all means, tweeted that the president "facilitated a disaster" in choosing this course.

"The situation rapidly spiraling out of control in northern Syria," said ABC News anchor Tom Llamas as he narrated the video clip on Sunday. "One week since President Trump ordered U.S. forces out of that region, effectively abandoning America's allies in the fight against [the Islamic State]."

So perhaps ABC was searching for footage—dramatic, explosive footage—that confirmed that narrative. Or maybe it was a clumsy mistake. Whatever it was, it shows how few journalists understand the particulars of guns.

Last year, for instance, the Examiner highlighted an Associated Press story which continuously differentiated between semi-automatic and non-automatic rifles, which are the same thing. Perhaps more seriously, "assault weapons"—a vague term that no one quite understands—are constantly compared to machine guns and weapons of war, although they fire at the same speed as other semi-automatic weapons.

Those mistakes are relatively small, though, when compared with ABC's latest blunder.


2013 Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot In One Word…Bacchanalia!

USA –-(Ammoland.com)- The Knob Creek Machine Gun shoot runs Friday through Sunday, twice a year, and Saturday night is the main event.

About an hour before dark, folks are out on the range setting up all sorts of explosives while a crowd builds, anxiously awaiting what we all know is coming.

The lights go out, and the next thing you know machine guns are going off for almost 20 straight minutes. This year’s October 2013 edition did not disappoint. I’ve now crossed this off of my “Things to Do Before I Die” list.

Check out the video below, other than the beginning, my favorite part is at the 5:50 mark. Enjoy! Oh yeah, turn your volume all the way up for best effect.


Watch the video: 4K EPIC Machine Gun Night Shoot at the Knob Creek Gun Range